Some historical context: This conversation between Mussolini and Niekisch took place in 1935 when relations between Germany and Italy were still tense due to the assassination of the Austrian prime minister and German expansion. Ernst Niekisch, a German National Bolshevik and opponent of Hitler who had his magazine banned the previous year, was looking for allies in the fight against Hitler and saw one in the Italian leader Benito Mussolini. With that out of the way, here is Ernst Niekisch's conversation with Benito Mussolini.
The original Russian version can be found here: https://web.archive.org/web/20180125123415/http://www.nb-info.ru/nb/nikisch031015.htm
Niekisch and Mussolini
Tavolato introduced me to the journalist Engerli in this little restaurant. Engerli was close to Mussolini. He was the editor-in-chief of "Affari esteri," the official foreign policy journal published by the fascist regime. Engerli, an intelligent man, clearly of Swiss origin, despite his close relationship with the fascist regime, still had a critical attitude towards it. He was surely shot in 1942 together with Count Chiano. After some misfortunes, Engerli asked me if I wanted to meet Mussolini. I replied that I could not entertain the thought that Mussolini would be interested in my modest person. Engerli said it was no longer my concern. I replied that I was willing to meet on the condition that I would not take any steps towards it, and Engerli would take care of arranging the meeting. I informed him that we were planning to go to Naples and Sorrento for about eight days. During this time, he could take care of everything necessary.
On the Feast of the Ascension of the Lord, we returned from Sorrento to Rome. The hotel director informed me - it was already around eleven o'clock at night - that I had been called several times to the phone from the Palazzo Chigi, where the Ministry of Foreign Affairs was located; I was to report there immediately upon my arrival. A journalist associated with Engerli visited me at the hotel that same night. He was aware of everything and told me that I should arrive at Palazzo Chigi the next day. I would also receive an invitation from Mussolini. The meeting was scheduled for the following Monday at six o'clock in the evening.
I was warmly welcomed at Palazzo Chigi. The invitation was written in a kind tone; it mentioned my journal "Resistance" and my brochure "In the Suffocating Atmosphere of Pacts." I was required to keep the contents of the upcoming conversation secret and not publish anything.
After the visit to Palazzo Chigi, through a German journalist, I informed the German ambassador in Rome, Mr. von Hassel, about what was happening. I asked to convey that I was willing to hear any wishes if the ambassador deemed it necessary to give me some directives before the audience. Mr. von Hassel invited me to his residence on Monday at four o'clock.
At the appointed time, I was at the German embassy. Mr. von Hassell received me in his office. He found it remarkable the invitation I had received. It had sparked lively interest in the German colony. The ambassador believed that relations between Germany and Italy were still tense: Mussolini and Hitler did not understand each other well. Mussolini intended to invade Abyssinia. As soon as he embarks on the Abyssinian adventure, he will urgently need German assistance. I was supposed to push him towards invading Abyssinia as much as possible, because then Mussolini will be in the hands of Germany. I was deeply offended by this proposal - to do everything possible to strengthen Mussolini in his intention to attack Abyssinia, if the opportunity arises during the conversation.
Then we talked about German politics. I informed the ambassador that I was against Hitler and considered his policy fatal, destructive for the Germans. Mr. von Hassell thoughtfully nodded, looked at me for a long time, and then gathered courage for a frank conversation. He, the ambassador of the Third Reich, confided in me that he also had serious doubts. He asked me what I saw as a particular weakness of German policy. I replied that the weakness was Hitler's anti-Bolshevik line, which would ruin him; it would inevitably force him to fight on two fronts and ultimately lead him to his grave. Hassell replied that he considered Hitler's anti-Bolshevik policy dangerous and dubious, just like me. Before leaving, I promised to send him a report on my conversation with Mussolini.
From the German embassy, I went to the Palazzo Venezia. Two guards in civilian clothes stood at the gates and checked my documents. The waiting room was a small vaulted hall, tastefully furnished. There were two people in it - a Dutch journalist and an American. I was told that the journalist was a passionate Mussolini fan. Every day she sat for hours in the waiting room and only caught glimpses of Mussolini a few times, never being allowed to talk to him. But she was happy because she felt close to the "great man." The American was invited to see Mussolini before me, but it was not even five minutes before he returned. Then it was my turn.
Mussolini received me in a well-known large and long hall, where there was no furniture except for his desk. Behind this desk stood Mussolini in his usual pose: with his arms crossed and a Caesar-like expression. I had to walk a considerable distance from the doors to the desk. Mussolini offered me a seat, but he remained standing. After a few formal words about me, he asked me how I got into politics. I replied that I was a social democrat, then worked in trade unions and was strongly influenced by Marxism. My answer had a strange effect on him. His tense facial features smoothed out, his face took on a youthful and cheerful expression. He quickly sat down, leaned towards me across the desk, and said, "Isn't it true that one must go through the school of Marxism to acquire a true understanding of political realities? Those who have not passed through the school of historical materialism will remain mere ideologists." After that, he asked me what I had against Hitler. I told him that I had many things against Hitler in my heart, but primarily I was against his foreign policy. Mussolini wanted to know specifically what I found wrong there. I told him that Hitler is mistakenly hoping to obtain permission from Western powers to destroy Russia and turn it into his prey. If Hitler becomes the sole master of Russia, he will be so strong that it will threaten the privileged position of the Anglo-Saxon powers. These powers will never allow that. Hitler's anti-Russian stance will result in Germany having to fight on two fronts, and it will inevitably perish from this. "What do you suggest instead?" Mussolini asked. I replied, "I agree with your words about the proletarian nations. The proletarian nations are Germany, Italy, Russia, and possibly Japan. This union would have no equals; no one could resist it, it could defeat England and America in Asia, just as in Europe."
Mussolini excitedly struck the table with his fist. "That's exactly what I keep telling Hitler over and over again!" he exclaimed. "If Hitler continues his foolish policy of pushing Russia into the arms of France and England, then as a result, both Germany, Italy, and all of Europe will perish."
Mussolini also touched on the issue of the Anschluss of Austria by Germany. He agreed that Austria, in terms of its structure, economy, and cultural policy, gravitates towards Germany. However, he would never accept Austria's annexation to Germany based on state law under any circumstances. The issue would not only be that Germany would then move closer to the borders of Italy. The weight of Germany would become too heavy for Italy to withstand direct German pressure on its borders. He had already communicated this to Berlin several times. But Hitler does not understand the basics of politics, does not know the formula that lies at its core: "Do ut des" (I give so that you may give). Hitler always wants to receive, but never to give anything to anyone. This is very easy for him, of course, but if he continues to act solely in his own favor, he will soon find no partners.
I asked if Hitler would agree to the Anschluss in response to Italy's invasion of Abyssinia. Mussolini quickly responded by asking how I knew he intended to invade Abyssinia. I said that understanding this only required a political view: he could not hide the great trends that Mussolini had undertaken to ultimately resolve the Abyssinian issue.
Mussolini smiled, thought briefly, and then said, "Qui vivra verra" (Whoever lives will see).
After that, he asked about the situation of the evangelical church in Germany. I understood the intent behind this question. Mussolini wanted to find out how strong Hitler's domestic positions were. Did he have enough strength to overcome the resistance of the Protestant church? Hitler had capitulated to the Catholic church; would he do the same with the Protestants?
I told Mussolini that Hitler had managed to turn the Protestant church into ruins. Only the Confessing Church's resistance was noteworthy. Most pastors were afraid to become martyrs; they were not like the early Christians who eagerly went to the stake. Mussolini smiled and said that the pastors had become too complacent.
He then got up from behind his desk, shook my hand warmly, and said that when I returned to Rome, I must inform him, and he would slowly receive me. He was well aware of my journalistic activities.
The conversation lasted about an hour.
The fact that Mussolini, contrary to his wise judgments, eventually joined the Hitlerian policy line happened because as a result of his Abyssinian campaign, he fell into debt slavery to the Germans.